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how rasict and cruel people are these days!

should people be allowed to say these jokes, or even make these jokes online ??!!

  • yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • no

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Im rasict i dont give a fuck

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
  • Poll closed .

TangerineGiggles

New Member


 

Dashmiel

Bearly In Charge
Administrator
Nexus GM
This is a really hard one to take a side on, because I can empathize where people being against these kind of jokes even being allowed are coming from. But in my opinion, I believe they should be allowed to be a thing that is not illegal to do. Don't misunderstand, I do not tolerate them or use them myself; I believe that people should be the ones to decide, via our social interactions to be the ones who decide where this issue lies, and not be something enforced upon us by law. For example, that kind of thing is absolutely against our rules here at STC, but I don't need to get the cops involved when someone posts them. It just shows me who to exclude from our community. It allows us to have the social power to decide for ourselves the boundaries of our social gestalt.

Now, I do agree that other countries (I am writing from a US perspective) have made it so that certain forms of hate speech are not protected speech (I further admit that I have not actually researched to see if any of them include racist jokes under the exclusion to protected status) and they've managed to be fine and not fall into anarchy. I agree with that being a valid choice for those countries, and perhaps we'll even come to the same conclusion in the US at some point. But I feel we are not there yet in our collective social constructs. We are a young nation when it comes to handling the wounds of our past where it concerns the damages done to African slaves during the days of slavery and how there have been since numerous incidents of whole civil policies structured in such a way as to severely limit the growth potential of the descandants of those African slaves in our country. But we're improving and every small improvements is one I believe will firmly be a trend for the better. Because every younger generation carries forward a new understanding of how our society should be.

Even if our system allows for brief moments when momentary surges of more open disdain and even hatred by some towards black people, I firmly believe that our lens of viewing how that affects us is severly distorted by our ability to endlessly distract ourselves by seeking out the most negative view we can find. Because the other thing our systems allow is our ability to change them for the better, and I feel that with every passing generation, we improve more and more. Not to say there is still not a lot of work left to do, but I feel we must recognize things are better than in the past.

And a part of that, is jokes. I believe that humor is one of mankind's oldest tools for bonding. After the fire to help us be able to keep more of our hunts, it gave us a reason to gather in one place to share a meal together and need to spend our time talking to one another. I'm sure that one of if not the first conversation in that first storytelling circle began with someone cracking a joke at how Ugg tripped and shat himself when the sabetoothed tiger pounce, not knowing it was Grark that was wearing it's skin after the kill haha haha.

And those particularly distateful racist jokes are most likely to start in my opinion, during a child's teenaged years. As I said before, I firmly believe we carry the capacity for each generation to improve upon it's previous parent generation. And I feel we begin that ourselves as teens. As less and less people still maintain racist views in our country (and again, I posit that the current view we see today in our many forms of taking in distracting media), less and less children grow to have these beliefs. When they do, and they get into their teenage peers, they will begin to encounter other kids who have grown with a racist mindset. And having been a teenager once, I guarantee one of, if not the first way these kids will realize their different views is through exposure to one of these jokes.

Being Afro-Hispanic myself, I've been in situations where I had felt excluded both because some people felt the european white slave owners in my ancestry made it so I wasn't black enough, and where others felt that the black african slaves that had been in my ancestry made it so I was too tainted, was too close to black. I was lucky to be in a group of friends where even though at first no one knew where we stood, we had the freedom to hear one of those disgusting jokes. And I found that most of the kids in our circle disdained those racist views, and frombeing in that age where fitting in with your peers is everything, were able to open dialogues (in a matter of speaking, in that ackward teenaged fashion) with those racist peers. And were able to change their views.

I genuinely believe that despite all of the troubles we seem to be in recent times, we truly do live in a world where society is ever trending towards the better even in the face of regression trying to turn us back. And that is why I feel we need to have the freedom to continue to improve.
 

Treehee

Destroyer of Dreams
I think making jokes about any subject is fine, as long as you keep the context of a situation in mind. For example, it might not be a great idea to make a race-based joke right after hearing news about a race-motivated shooting. I also think jokes like this are actually positive in certain contexts, as they draw attention to societal issues regarding discrimination, and can also help break stereotypes by means of absurdity.
 

Minminniexx

MxM RP's - GDocs / Discord for chatting -
I feel like people are self entitling themselves for example, my community, LGBT, they invite targets on their back for complaining about not being 'approved' or 'prided' There isn't a straight pride month so why should "my" community have one to draw attention to themselves. I feel the same applies to other races / genders, ect. People wouldn't care so much I feel if they didn't draw attention to themselves and ask for special treatment?

Just my opinion. People should keep to themselves, if it doesn't hurt you, then stop being offended by it.
 

Treehee

Destroyer of Dreams
I feel like people are self entitling themselves for example, my community, LGBT, they invite targets on their back for complaining about not being 'approved' or 'prided' There isn't a straight pride month so why should "my" community have one to draw attention to themselves. I feel the same applies to other races / genders, ect. People wouldn't care so much I feel if they didn't draw attention to themselves and ask for special treatment?

Just my opinion. People should keep to themselves, if it doesn't hurt you, then stop being offended by it.
I agree. I'm gay myself and cannot stand the constant whining that is the lgbt "community".
 

Minminniexx

MxM RP's - GDocs / Discord for chatting -
*
I agree. I'm gay myself and cannot stand the constant whining that is the lgbt "community".
*highfive* It drives me nuts. .....So. you want to be accepted but you're busy parading around looking like a lunatic with no clothes on because it's gay pride month. Okay. The only people accepting you are the local tribe of a village we haven't met yet, and they only reason they would accept you is they are looking at you as dinner and you have enough meat on your bones to feed their village for a month.
 

Script

Adorable Homewrecker
Benefactor
The argument of "there isn't a straight pride month" is a flawed one. The same argument applies to "why isn't there a white history month", or an "international men's day" - it's because every other month of the year by default celebrates the 'norm'.

Culture in most countries hasn't progressed to the point where discrimination isn't widespread. In America, the concept of equal marriage is still a contentious one. Straight people don't have to deal with "heterophobia" at school or in the workplace. LGBT folks often have to deal with worrying over whether being true to their sexual orientation is going to result in bullying, or worse, being fired or denied service -- many places don't have watertight protections against that sort of thing.

When was the last time you heard of someone being murdered for being straight or cisgendered? Gay and transgender people still face violence every day, even in first-world and accepting countries. That's not even considering places where it's still illegal to be gay, and gay people are actively killed or imprisoned.

Pride month has its origins in the Stonewall riots, events that took place after oppressive and violent actions taken by the authorities against vulnerable LGBT communities. Pride isn't about acceptance, it's about defiance. It's a statement that there isn't any need for everyone to conform to the norm, and stay invisible. It's about saying "we exist, and just because it makes you uncomfortable doesn't mean we should try and blend in and let you pretend we aren't there".

You make a comment about "they invite targets on their back", but I would assert that openly celebrating LGBT identity under no circumstances should 'invite a target'. It is not the LGBT community's responsibility to 'blend in', so that their identities don't offend the sensibilities of the majority. There shouldn't be any need, because LGBT identities shouldn't be targeted. The fact that they are won't change if we shut up and stay quiet, and avoid making a fuss. Change never happened that way, that's a step backwards.

"People should keep to themselves" - you may believe that, but notice how this concept only really comes up when the people not 'keeping to themselves' are the minority? Note that when a movie or a game or any other form of media includes an LGBT character, it causes a stir. People kick up a fuss, and complain about the LGBT community shoving their sexualities in their faces. Yet, near every other movie, game, or piece of media will include heterosexual romances by default. The mere presence of an LGBT character that openly states their sexuality is seen as 'shoving it in our face'.

Your points about the sexual aspects of pride are separate. The nudity and the sexual freedom are about standing against the extremely sex-negative attitudes of society, and because sexuality is inherently a part of a person's orientation and identity. Furthermore, every day we see scantily clad women in music videos, in games, in half-time shows, on stage, and more. Nobody kicks up a fuss when such media displays sexualised women aimed for guys (except feminists, of course, but that's a separate 'why don't we have an international men's day' argument). But during one parade, you see gay expression of sexuality, and it's a problem now?

___________

But going back to my original point. Pride exists because of a need for visibility. Heterosexuality is thoroughly embedded into society, into advertising and media and people's expectations. Having one month where that's turned on its head forces the world to sit up and pay attention. It's a way for the LGBT community to say "we're here, and we're okay with who we are: you should be too".

Why is that wrong? Why shouldn't the world be okay with LGBT people being SEEN?

The same applies, as I said, to the other issues of race and gender. Society is inherently biased towards the people in power, and that is by majority: straight white men. I don't think I'm being a social justice freak to acknowledge that. Having a month, or a day, where we acknowledge the issues that the minorities of society are still facing, is only a good thing.

If we lived in a world where everyone was truly equal? Sure, we wouldn't need things like that. But we don't. We live in a world where race-crimes still happen, where LGBT people are discriminated against or killed for who they love. These events are a time for those communities to take the spotlight, to draw attention to their problems, and most importantly, to assert to the most vulnerable members of their communities that it's okay to be the way they are. Visibility isn't just important for defiance, but for support.

When I was a little kid, pride month was a much smaller thing. I never saw all these big companies displaying rainbows and messages of support. If I had? If I was given the impression that accepting LGBT people was 'mainstream'? I'd probably have been a lot less scared about accepting who I was. Kids today who see big names coming out to support pride month are going to get that reassurance that the world is progressing, and that's only a good thing.

I hope I've made some points that make a difference to your opinion.

On the subject of the original post, I'll admit to having a fondness for dark/inappropriate jokes, but I think it's important to consider your company when making jokes like that, and to consider the context for them. It's a good policy not to "punch down" with your humor- it's all too easy to end up perpetuating negative stereotypes or crossing the line into offensive.
 

Minminniexx

MxM RP's - GDocs / Discord for chatting -
I suppose I just think that if you draw attention to yourself you deserve the positive, and negative attention from that result. However, I 100% support being PROUD of yourself, no matter if you're gay, straight, or other. However, pride should be personalized, not externalized and shoved in peoples faces. I am perfectly okay with wanting equal treatment, but if you act like you're 'above' someone because you're special, that's not 'equal'. How I see it, you give what you put out. If you give respect, you should get it in most aspects, if you don't give respect, you don't deserve it.

Gay pride was I believe originally to honor a young child who killed himself after coming out and being teased, and they enacted the 'proud of you' movement to help people feel safer coming out. However, it's turned into a pathetic debacle of who can be more noticed and have more followers on Instagram. It's become a nuisance to those of us who just want to love who we want to love, and not be judged and stereotyped into the 'bucket LBGT' person. Which is primarily becoming people like Paris Hilton ... Rude, harassing, Disgusting behavior, and nasty comments, and just an overall non-respect for anyone, or anything. Its these types of people that are representing the community as a whole, and giving a bad name to those of us who DO want to be accepted.

Yes, I want LGBT to be seen, no I do not want them frolicking almost naked with their boyfriend in public and forcing the rest of the world to deal with it. I don't like seeing a male and female grinding and macking on each other in public, so I don't want to see that either.

and yes, I'm LGBT positive, Given I'm dating my gender.

I have nothing against telling people to have safety in themselves, and feel safe coming out, I just don't like what 'gay pride' has turned into.

Draws too much attention.


also, I feel like I'm hijacking this poor persons thread with this, so I'll leave this comment here and stop the conversation here before it takes over.

Thank you for your input, it's appreciated.
 

AmatsuOtaku

Proud gf of a sweet angel~
I might be late, but here's my stance;
It's not right to make jokes at others' expense, no matter what the situation. But, if you're around people you know and it won't offend anyone, then maybe some very moderate jokes about some of those sensitive topics could be allowed.
I am part of the LBGTQ+ community (bi), and while I do think we deserve equality, I also don't like how people tend to DEMAND attention. Wearing pride gear or just supporting the cause is fine, but making a huge deal over being LGBT is not. Same thing about racism, all people deserve to be treated fairly but should not purposely cause drama just for attention. There has to be a balance.
And I'm also just praying that when I go into high school wearing my new pride gear I won't suddenly get all of the hate.
 

Kaos

Member
Everything is allowed to be joked about in a free democracy, it's a cornerstone of the system that everyone be able to say anything no matter how stupid. It's good to let someone out themselves for having a terrible opinion or view point, and it's even good to argue about it.
It's NOT good to police their speech; if you're trying to deny them the freedom you're exercising to yell at someone, that's just hypocritical and authoritarian. The right thing to do is fight back with your words, not try and punish people for using phrases, words or ideas with removal from a community or a society.

In most countries, citizens are supposed to have the same rights, and be fundamentally equal to one another, not inferior or superior.
Giving a specific group of people protection and treating them with a different standard says you don't see them as an equal, but something to protect, like a child, or covet and worship like they're better than you.
Nobody should want to live life thinking that some people have a lesser value.
 

TMITM

Megalomaniacal Arbiter
We're All Mad Here
You are allowed to be offended by things people say, but I think holding words (Like the dreaded N-word) at such a high standard is unwise. You are giving it the power you so desperately want it to not have. Just understand that some people deal with things by joking about them. Racism is a real problem, but that does not mean it is exempt from jokes. If you don't allow yourself to be offended, it won't be a problem.
Also, understand that most people who do racist things or say racist things are just looking for attention. When you blow up about it, it just gives them the attention they crave so much. I'm not saying it's right, that's just the way things are. Coming back around, it's just a word. A statement with no inherent harm. They might be saying it ironically or jokingly. The point is -- leave it alone.
 
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Nilum

The Wanderer Returned
Benefactor
On the original topic: Making jokes about any minority group requires several social factors to be considered. Generally, I try to live by the rule that any humour of mine has to punch up, not down. Don't aim to make jokes at the expense of a victim group, make jokes at the expense of the group that victimizes others. If a victim group tells you that a joke about them isn't funny, you should listen to them in the way that you would wish others to listen to you about how you feel.

Empathy shouldn't be a difficult requirement. If your response to someone saying "I didn't like your joke" is "tough snowflake" or some equivalent, you're no longer entitled to surprise when those same people hate you. You invited it upon yourself by showing them how little you care.

As for the legality of it all, I'm not a lawyer, but I can tell you as someone who lives in a country with hate speech that it doesn't interfere with day-to-day life. Hate Speech in Canada is reserved for those who deliberately advocate inflicting harm on discernable groups. You have to pull a full-on Hitler and hop onto a podium, screaming bloody murder about "those others" that you despise. It is a law that is, subsequently, rarely used.

I would not want to make racist humour illegal (unless it advocates violence against specific ethnic groups), but I would like to point out that the same free speech which protects a comedian's right to say it also protects a critic's right to object to it. If someone makes a shitty joke, let em' suffer the social consequences for doing so. That alone is often more than enough, no need for the lawman to step in most of the time.

The argument of "there isn't a straight pride month" is a flawed one. The same argument applies to "why isn't there a white history month", or an "international men's day" - it's because every other month of the year by default celebrates the 'norm'.
I suppose I just think that if you draw attention to yourself you deserve the positive, and negative attention from that result. However, I 100% support being PROUD of yourself, no matter if you're gay, straight, or other. However, pride should be personalized, not externalized and shoved in peoples faces. I am perfectly okay with wanting equal treatment, but if you act like you're 'above' someone because you're special, that's not 'equal'. How I see it, you give what you put out. If you give respect, you should get it in most aspects, if you don't give respect, you don't deserve it.
LGBT Pride Month began as a result of the 1969 Stonewall riots as a way of preventing LGBTQ+ voices from being silenced by the overwhelming majority of the population. Pride events then began to follow all over the United States, then the world, which subsequently evolved into parades and LGBT Pride Month. These events are now instead ways of either highlighting continuing injustices or celebrating an oft suppressed identity simply by opting to exist.

The reason there's no such thing as a heterosexual pride month is that heterosexuality was never suppressed or silenced, nor does it continue to face suppression or silence. Script is correct, the comparison is absurd. The reason the LGBT even have a distinct culture in comparison to the rest of society is because they became a differentiated, suppressed group in their own right. They were othered by the establishment so hard that they developed their own culture in response. LGBT Pride Month exists for that reason: To highlight and give voices to those who often don't get to have them.

The most legitimate criticism of pride parades is that some of them are becoming overcommercialized. Corporations are taking over their meaning to sell merch rather than focus on identity issues. The response has been a growing movement of intersectionality and critical theory being put into pride parades.

As for "shoved in people's faces", you're free not to attend LGBTQ+ pride parades. Nobody is forcing you to go or watch them. You are typically warned well ahead of time on social media and by the news which streets will be locked down for the parade. You can literally choose not to witness or attend it, and for most people, it comes and goes completely uneventfully. Pride should be expressed however one wishes to express it. If you have no issue with ticker-tape parades, the Macy's day parades, military parades, or other forms of outward expression of pride, then you should have no issue with LGBTQ+ pride parades.

Finally, I have no idea what one would even celebrate at a "straight pride" festival. The complete lack of oppression? How they can be a part of major religious institutions without fear, like on every other day of the year? This comparison is inherently absurd and ignores several years of history. There's no heterosexual version of Stonewall and there likely never will be.
 
to put it bluntly; hate speech falls into free speech, and I feel that words are just words and unless it's like a credible or terroristic threat there shouldn't be any impedance to these jokes. Comedy is about pain, and sometimes the punchline of a joke is the reaction of the audience.
 
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