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Can people change?

Discussion in 'Discussions & Debates' started by Ink_Rain, Dec 4, 2017.

  1. Ink_Rain

    Ink_Rain Member

    Based on your experiences with people in your life, do you think that people can change? How many chances do you usually give a person who has wronged you or lied to you before you stop believing them when they say they'll be different?​
  2. Natalija

    Natalija Queen of LaLa Land, state of Capital Bulshit :P

    Hmmm... thats realy too broad a question to answer easy.

    Do I think ppl can change? Yes. Do I think its easy for ppl to change? NO. Do I think most ppl want to change? NO. Have I seen many ppl who changed? NO.

    So... one "yes", and three "no". In my expirience. And the "yes" is the most hypotetical of all. All the "no's" - I say from personal and obzervable expirience. Have I changed, since I vas born? Oh yes, and then some. But not because I chose to, because I had to. So, the "yes" can hapen, if a person has a reason to change. Or more precisely, if a reason FORCES them to change. Have I changed since that time? No. I didnt have a reason to, and frankly, I like my-self as I am. Despite many ppl telling me I shuld. But I disagree with them.

    How many chances do I give a perosn who wronged me? That realy depends on the level of "wrong" done. For one specific person in my life, who wronged me in so many horrible ways I stil get nightmares from, I given zero chances. I killed him. And the only thing I regret about that, is that he didnt suffer more before he died. But, that is the extreme case, since the amount of "wrong" he did to me goes beyond words. And not something I'l talk about here. But for lesser levels of "wrong" - depends. What did the "wronger" do? How deep does it go? How big a "wrong" vas it? Vas it done on purpose or not? Whole lot of variables. So the amount of chances given, shuld, IMO, realy be on a case-by-case basis. There is no single answer. It can be none, it can be unlimited, or it can be any number in betwen.

    I supose it also depends how forgiving a person are you. Me... not very much. But agen, depends on the cirkumstance. Small "wrongs" are easyer to forgive then big ones.

    As for ppl saying "they'l be different" - I'l buy that, ONCE. If they remain the same, and rezume the usual pattern of behavior, that means there word is worth nothing, and from that point on, they can say anithing they want, and I wont belive it anymore. If they do change... wel, that shows character, and a person I can trust.

    The saying goes: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." Vith me, there wil never be that "fool me twice" part.
    Mythos likes this.
  3. Nilum

    Nilum A Curious Man Benefactor Absolutely Fabulous

    Yes, people can change. As for "how long", I find that's typically the wrong way to approach it. As though you should just put a person in a timed corner and go "come out when you're done, and you will magically be changed!" Not how it works.

    Change requires effort. It requires some measure of empathy, and humility, and to a certain extent, even intelligence. It takes time, but the "time" quotient varies from person to person. Some will change simply because they have the willpower to do it overnight. Some take days, some take weeks, some take months or years, and some never change because they cannot resist their own nature.

    The key is that you don't believe them. Don't believe anyone simply because they say something. It costs nothing but a few breaths to whisper whatever empty promise you want to. Instead, trust people who have proven to care about you. Trust people willing to question you, who stand by you when you are hurt, who sacrifice time and energy to be kind to you.

    Trust someone only to be themselves, and nothing more. Forgive those who hurt you, because hatred is merely consuming poison and expecting the other person to die.

    Beyond that? Well...

    “Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names.” -John F. Kennedy.
    BloodInDaWater likes this.
  4. Mythos

    Mythos New Member

    I agree entirely. It takes a lot of time and energy to change, just wanting to be better and do better isn't enough. You have to be committed to it and actively think about why it's important that you do. Most people just don't want to put in that kind of effort, not when it's so easy to stick to your old habits. Personally, I've had to make a lot of changes just in the past few weeks. Had to think about who was really important to me and why I needed to keep being around for them. It's exhausting, but it's better than nothing.

    How many chances does someone get before I stop believing them when they say they'll be different? It depends on what their particular crime is. If it's a minor squabble or some petty thing, sure I'll give them a lot of leeway. We're only human, life's too short to get caught up in the little things. But if it's something huge, if someone's seriously hurt me or mine? Fuck'em. You get one shot to make things right. And if you can't, maybe we don't need to be aound each other anymore.
    Natalija likes this.
  5. Natalija

    Natalija Queen of LaLa Land, state of Capital Bulshit :P

    Yes, and look how he ended up. Maybe he shuld have take care to tie up loose ends vith his enemies, instead of forgiving them. Maybe he wuld still be alive.

    Sorry Nil, but thats one thing I'l never understand. "Forgiving your enemies". I dont do that. It may take days, it may take months, or years, but eventualy I get even, vith anyone who wronged or hurt me.
  6. Nilum

    Nilum A Curious Man Benefactor Absolutely Fabulous

    If you don't mind, I'm going to teach you some history. Not because I think you don't know it, but because I think it might illuminate you as to why I appreciate that quote from a dead man.

    JFK was assassinated by a complete nobody (Lee Harvey Oswald) he knew nothing about. A person he never knew killed him in a random act of unwarranted violence, can't exactly blame forgiveness for that. He was in an inherently risky profession (leading a country), it happens. Take a stance on anything, and someone will wish you dead.

    As for "taking care of loose ends", that can only go so far. I can even veritably point out, with a historical comparison, why JFK was ultimately right even in death to take that position.

    The Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand sparked the beginning of The Great War. Austria-Hungary used the death of the Archduke as a cassus belli against Serbia, which in turn roped Russia into the war to protect them as the two had a mutual interest in one another's safety, which roped Germany into declaring war on Russia in support of their ally Austria-Hungary, which in turn led to the rest of world war 1. The total death count because of a country's desire to avenge the death of an Archduke to a politically motivated assassin was 40 million people. The vast, vast majority of whom, having never cared for Archduke Ferdinand or his assassin.

    Post World War 1, the Treaty of Versailles was signed by the Allied Powers against Germany. Austria-Hungary imploded, and Germany was left an impoverished nightmare that grew resentful toward the Allied powers. The Allies were getting their revenge--in getting monetary compensation from a beaten enemy. That beaten enemy evolved into a fascist nightmare that consumed Europe, and another 50 to 80 million lives. The consequences of which led to the Cold War between the USSR and the USA.

    If we continued to follow that logic, of getting revenge, of killing in the name of justice, none of us would be here right now. Because Lee Harvey Oswald was a marxist, who had moved to Russia, married a Russian woman, and settled down in the US. There is very little doubt that at least part of his motivation in killing the President of the United States was political--just like the Serbian assassin who killed Archduke Ferdinand. However, the US stayed its hand. It did not declare war on the USSR. Because if it did, it would have resulted in total nuclear annihilation for both sides.

    The truth is... Revenge gets you nothing. Revenge does not build an empire. Revenge does not bring back the dead. Revenge does not create masterpieces of art or cure cancer or do anything remotely productive. All revenge begets is more revenge. It continues, on and on, until either one person at some point endures the pain and says "I'm sorry" and tries to fix things, or until there is nobody left to fight anymore.

    It takes a strong man, a kind man, of conviction and worthiness, to forgive someone who has wronged them and not pursue revenge. However, a fool is one who ignores a villain at the door, or evil in the midst--thus, the phrase: "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names." If someone has hurt you, remember how they hurt you, and why they hurt you, and be smarter. Don't go for revenge, you will get nothing from it, but don't go and blindly trust the people who hurt you again.

    To forgive is not to be blind, it's to let go of the lasting damage that someone else has left on you. Little more. I'm glad the leaders of nations learned this lesson a long time ago, because it means you and I can have this conversation, instead of looking through scraps hoping to find another meal in a nuclear hellhole.
    ellisael, Vardoger and Funk like this.
  7. Natalija

    Natalija Queen of LaLa Land, state of Capital Bulshit :P

    I hope you dont think Oswald acted alone on that. He vas just the trigger-man, carrying out a hit. And no, I dont think his motives wer political. He vas hired (or maybe forced, coerced, who knows) to do it by certain interests that didnt want to see the changes Kennedy wanted to introduce. I wont go in-to that debate, since thats a whole diferent issue, and it has to do vith globalist banker elite and the NWO. And I dont want the topic to shift. Lets just say, I belive that if Kennedy digged deeper, and conected a few more dots then he did, the interests I'm talking about wuld never have got a chance to take him down, he wuld have taken them down first. And the world today wuld be a much beter place, as a rezult.

    Aniway, like I sayed, thats a whole another issue, vhich isnt what this thread is about. I agree, wide-scale revenge gets you nothing. But thats why you need to keep it in perspektive. I belive in revenge. Its a very healthy, natural, necesary urge, I belive, for one to want to get even on one's enemys. If you just endure, you only make yorself more of a victim. I learned that the hard way. Its a survival trait, in my view, and a boost to self-esteem. But, it needs to be kept in perspektive. It needs to be planned right, it needs to be executed right, and most of all, it shuld only affect the one who vronged you. Nobody else.

    WW1 hapened, because revenge vas taken out of perspektive. And because the assasination vasnt realy the catalyst, it vas just a "drop that spiled the glass", after a long period of instability. It vas a breaking point. War wuld have hapened, one way or the other, the assasination only akcelerated it a little.

    Disagree. It brings closure, and a peace of mind. And I speak from personal expirience.

    And thats how professional-victims are created. That is how passive-agression begins. That is how one becomes neutered, and dis-inclined to take care of one-self. That is why so many ppl today are frustrated, over some long-past wrong they never set right. Sure, your strong. In your own head, self-deluding yorself, thinking you hold some "moral high ground" vhile who-ever wronged you is laughing at you, and preparing to fuck you over agen, because they now know they can, and you wont do anithing about it. No thanx.

    But, that atitude is no more, or less, then I expected to hear from you, given vhat I know about you. So its ok. Just another point we are polar oposed on. By all means, if "forgive and move on" works for you, good on you. It dont work for me. I belive in the good old eye-for-an-eye. Always worked for me.
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
  8. Nilum

    Nilum A Curious Man Benefactor Absolutely Fabulous

    So long as you never hurt an innocent, we'll remain on temperate terms.

    Thanks for the different point of view, though. I appreciate it.
  9. Natalija

    Natalija Queen of LaLa Land, state of Capital Bulshit :P

    That depends. Do you include stuff that hapens in a ring as "hurting innocents" or not? Most of you leftist bleeding-heart types got a problem vith it, so I'm just curious. :p
  10. Nilum

    Nilum A Curious Man Benefactor Absolutely Fabulous

    If both people in a ring decide to duke it out, it's not my place to tell them otherwise. I might even watch. Hell, I'm of the opinion that it's not the government's job to tell people what to think or how to feel in general--whether that's doing hard drugs or prostitution or two people consenting to kicking the shit out of each other.

    So long as whatever rules that are in place are followed, and individual consent is always obtained, it's not my place to make that sort of judgement.
  11. Natalija

    Natalija Queen of LaLa Land, state of Capital Bulshit :P

    Then we'r good! Because I do tend to hurt alot of "innocent" people in there. :D
  12. Machina Somnium

    Machina Somnium Dream machine Staff Member Designer

    Do I think people change?, Yes, we all change all the time depending on what happens in our life. People can improve their judgement or become rotten, most of the time people change without noticing responding to events that ocurr in their lives. Changing purposefully to get rid of bad habits or behaviour does take time, effort and dedication. Some are willing to make it and some are not.

    When it comes to giving opportunities to people who habe wronged me, it depends on bow badly. I used to think everyone is worth of three chances, but seeing where that got me I do not consider it a wise decision. Perhaps forgive but not forget is a good answer, never forget what people do to you but don't show your teeth constantly, that makes you become the "bad guy" and only brings trouble. Even if you think somebody isn't worthy of forgiveness because what they did to you was absolutely horrible, then just don't forgive them, no one is going to make you do it. And you aren't a "bad" person for not forgiving someone who hurt you.
    Sometimes distance is the best option, not necessarily physical distance. To avoid confrontation, avoid interaction.
  13. Natalija

    Natalija Queen of LaLa Land, state of Capital Bulshit :P

    Keep in mind tho, just because you want to avoid interaction, dont mean they do. Sometimes confronting them is necesary to make them back off.
  14. Machina Somnium

    Machina Somnium Dream machine Staff Member Designer

    When someone confronts you with the intention of hurting/annoying you, ignore them. Keep it to the basic if its irl and only speak with then if and when strictly necessary. Ignore all provocations and they will end up leaving you alone.
    BloodInDaWater likes this.
  15. Natalija

    Natalija Queen of LaLa Land, state of Capital Bulshit :P

    Thats not how it works. They wont leave you alone, they'l just get bolder. Provocation is always best replyed in kind.

    Judicius aplication of violence can solve so many problems. And no amount of ignoring assholes, is as efective as a fist acros the jaw. Thats how ppl learn not to mess vith you.
  16. Machina Somnium

    Machina Somnium Dream machine Staff Member Designer

    I completely disagree there. They will get bolder for a while but sooner or later they will get bored. People confront others to get a reaction, if they get you worked up and you hit them, what usually gives proof that you hit them and none that they provoked you, making you the "bad" guy who reacted badly in the public's eyes, it only means that while they might not confront you directly in the case that they become afraid of you, they will continue to mock you and things will most likely just escalate.
  17. Natalija

    Natalija Queen of LaLa Land, state of Capital Bulshit :P

    *shrug* they can mock me all they want, long as they dont do it vhile I'm around. If they do, I just hit harder next time. Pain is the best teacher, and one nobody wil ignore.

    And if I cared about public opinion of me, do you realy think I'd be in the line of work I am? :p The only ppl whos opinion matters to me, are my frends.
  18. Machina Somnium

    Machina Somnium Dream machine Staff Member Designer

    I was not talking about or referring to your personal situation, but a general one which can happen in a school, workplace, or several other places.

    Now, if the situation becomes so bad that you cannot ignore the other person, there is no shame in asking for help from a teacher/supervisor or even the police. Better safe than sorry.
    (This part is not answering to you Natalija, just saying it in general)
  19. Nilum

    Nilum A Curious Man Benefactor Absolutely Fabulous

    Tend to prefer a "line in the sand" approach myself. There is a certain level of stupidity I will tolerate over a given period of time. Cross over that threshold and then I will reciprocate accordingly to make it cease. Self-defense is acceptable reasoning, given appropriate circumstance.
    Natalija likes this.
  20. Natalija

    Natalija Queen of LaLa Land, state of Capital Bulshit :P

    So, you do have some teeth! Maybe there hope for you after all. ;)

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